The Resonate Podcast with Aideen

Dare to Be Seen with Photographer Éadaoin Curtin: Episode 69

• Aideen Ni Riada • Season 1 • Episode 69

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What if you could step into a photograph and truly be seen? Join us on the Resonate podcast as we welcome Éadaoin Curtin, a remarkable photographer, educator, and copywriter dedicated to breaking the chains of perfectionism and self-judgment. 

This episode is a heartfelt dive into Éadaoin's unique journey from brand photography to empowering visibility work, where she creates environments that allow clients to reveal their essence without fear. Her transition into copywriting is another chapter of her story, showcasing her inclusive approach to helping diverse individuals feel comfortable and confident.

Éadaoin Curtin is an inclusive feminist photographer, educator and copywriter. She helps people dare to be seen without feeling the need for performance, perfectionism or fear of (self) judgement. She works with ambitious Leaders, creatives, movers & shakers who are excited to be visible in their business as they are – not in spite of who they are. She is the creator of the Dare To Be Seen visibility course and The Urban Quickie shoot process.

Connect with Éadaoin 

Instagram: @firechildphotography

LinkedIn: @eadaoin-curtin

Website: www.firechildphotography.com

Support the show

Thanks for listening! To book a free consultation with Aideen visit https://www.confidenceinsinging.com/contact/

Aideen Ni Riada:

Welcome to the Resonate podcast with Aideen. My guest today is another Eadaoin, and I'm really looking forward to introducing her to you, as I've known for quite a number of years now. is an inclusive feminist, photographer, educator and copywriter. She helps people dare to be seen without feeling the need for performance, perfectionism or the fear of self-judgment. She works with ambitious leaders, creatives, movers and shakers who are excited to be visible in their business as they are not, in spite of who they are. She is the creator of the Dare to be Seen Visibility Course and the Urban Quickie Shoot Process. You're very welcome, aideen.

Éadaoin Curtin:

Thank you so much, Aideen.

Aideen Ni Riada:

So I know you primarily as a photographer. We met many years ago, I think, through another online community, and I just loved your photographs. I know you're doing lots more now, but let's start with that little story about how we know each other because, my husband and I, when we got married, we chose you as our wedding photographer at that point. Now, that wasn't your main role even then.

Éadaoin Curtin:

I think you were mostly doing brand photography then right, yeah, I think I probably was, but I mean, I've always I love shooting weddings and I just don't adore the industry, um, and so yeah, I'll, I'll happily shoot a wedding when it's uh, when it's my kind of vibe and yours was oh, we just loved having it there, we just loved it and the photographs turned out so well.

Aideen Ni Riada:

Everybody like, um, I have to share a few wedding photos when you're when your podcast episode comes out. But, um, one thing I love about you, aideen, is your just your warmth, okay, and I just feel like you have a way of bringing people into a very, a state of being very comfortable with who they are and that they reveal who they are with you. And I'm really excited to hear that you're going beyond photography now, even into helping people to be more visible in different ways. Tell us how this evolution has come about, because I'm so curious about it um, so okay, so I've run the business.

Éadaoin Curtin:

I started firechild photography in sort of 2015 and one of the things that has always been the the most difficult for me has been marketing. Um, I love to write, I love to express myself, but, you know, it's always it's been one of the things. I think they overthink it a lot. Um, it's become this big kind of you know, the social media aspect of it particularly is kind of like a monster. I know there are plenty of other aspects of marketing, you know, like conversations like this and face-to-face and all that kind of stuff. But I came across this wonderful marketing consultant, kelly Deals, a couple of years ago, and so I took a course with her called Copywriting for Culture Makers, and the idea, the reason that I wanted to take it, is because I wanted to learn how to write for myself. But that was very exciting and I started talking to people about it and, lo, people wanted me to write for them. So that's just kind of how it happened.

Éadaoin Curtin:

I had a wonderful client that I worked with for a second time on his, with his photographs, his PR photos for his business, and he brought with him a consultant that he works with and we hit it off really well and we were having coffee and we were talking about her business and she was saying, was saying how you know, she wanted to change up her website and change how she works in her business and I said, right, let it, let's do it. You can be my gorgeous guinea pig. I'm going to write you your website. If it's great, you can pay me. If it's not, hey, I've learned from it, kind of thing. And it turned out really well because the process that I have learned is very, very similar to the process that I use with my photography clients.

Aideen Ni Riada:

I'm kind of just guessing now that you're going quite deep with people.

Éadaoin Curtin:

Quite deep, Excuse me, Quite deep quite fast. And I think you know I always I laugh at how I do that with my clients, because sometimes I will have had a very short conversation with them before we engage in the work and then all of a sudden we're getting into you know their greatest dreams and desires and they're the people they admire and the way that they want to be seen and heard and all of those things, and they're the kind of conversations that you don't really have on a day-to-day like. There's very little small talk in a lot of the work that I do and I think it is driven by my desire to know people you're a curious person.

Éadaoin Curtin:

I am a very curious person. I am. I always find it really interesting when I have it reflected back to me about how comfortable I make people feel and how safe I make them feel, because I actually think that that is probably my primary skill. The photographs are almost a byproduct of that. Um, you know that it's. It's the experience and because you know yourself, whether it's wedding photos or even just snaps that you make yourself, there's a story connected to them and how you felt in that moment. Like you remember how you felt in that moment and I think when people are uncomfortable, it's very obvious, you know.

Aideen Ni Riada:

So like, of course, there are technical skills necessary, but I think the primary thing is making people feel comfortable, that they can be vulnerable and they can be themselves really quickly and we don't have to, we don't have to dig too far, you know yeah, because, um, but just before we came on and started recording um, we spoke a little bit about you know that you like to work with very diverse people, that you're very inclusive, that you want people to feel good in their bodies, no matter if they look different from others. Because you do say in your bio you know that you want people to feel good in their bodies, no matter if they look different from others. Because you do say in your bio, you know that you want people to be visible as they are not, in spite of who they are. They're not trying to fit themselves into a mold that's palatable for others. What like that?

Aideen Ni Riada:

I just I'm curious about that in itself, because that's deeper than just looking like you're comfortable on camera, right, that's like what I'm. What am I saying about who I am? What am I revealing about myself that I don't reveal often?

Éadaoin Curtin:

yeah, yeah, and I think for a lot of us running a business because the people that I primarily work with are solo business owners, entrepreneurs, maybe some small, small businesses and we get into running a business not because we want to be business owners, but because we want to work in a certain way and we have ideas about how to do things differently. Probably and that does not necessarily mean that we're happy with everybody looking at us, if you know what I mean yeah, there's doing the work, and then there's there's the visibility around it and the standing up to say that this is what I believe and this is what I disagree with and how I want things to be different and how I want to change how things are done. Um, and yeah, it's a challenge, for for a lot of us and myself included, you know it's something that I've come up against. Like I said, like, for me, the marketing thing has always been a little bit difficult.

Éadaoin Curtin:

You know, as um, as a family member once said to me, you know somebody who'd never used the internet in his life. You know you have to put yourself out there. He understood, he understood the idea, the concept. We all understand that. I understand that, but the reality of it, that you know that thing. You know what I talk about, without feeling the need for performance or perfectionism or judgment, and it's the judgment from others and it's the judgment from ourselves, and I think that's something that we all like we. Being a business owner is a cut as a practice, you know, it's a constant reminding ourselves of why we're doing it, of what we're doing, and reminding ourselves that, um, that we're doing this for a reason, and just trying our best to remember that not everybody is judging us and not everybody's thinking like, who are they to be doing? That, you know, and I think that's it's something. Maybe it's particularly acute in the Irish psyche, I don't know, but I think I think it affects a lot of us oh, completely, it really does.

Aideen Ni Riada:

I've been um working with my dad a little bit on some marketing for um, a festival here in Ireland called the Eugene O'Neill Festival and there was a beautiful playwright, uh, sheeda Forsey, and I wrote her um, uh, press release because I used to work in PR and my dad's like I need you. So when my dad says, do this Aideen, I'm like okay, um, and I wrote this thing and she's like you made it, you made it sound too good. And I said but I didn't tell anything more than what you actually told me. I just might've used the word, you know, maybe I said, you know, I said it was a world premiere, the play. She's like how can you say that? Well, it is a world premiere. And so you know, I think Irish people do downplay things and they are acutely aware of how others might perceive them in their success.

Aideen Ni Riada:

And I get it. Actually, I see the benefits to both Like I don't. I like when people are you know that they really see that not everybody's succeeding right now. You know that they really see that not everybody's succeeding right now. And I have to, I'm mindful right about that I may be succeeding and someone else isn't struggling, and in America it's like people get applauded for tooting their own horn. So my being there and living there has kind of given me a kind of a different perspective, and I think if you're there has kind of given me a kind of a different perspective. And I think if you're, you do have to be brave and there's a huge amount of vulnerability. I think that's when you were speaking about how people might be feeling.

Aideen Ni Riada:

Tell me a little bit more, though. I'm really curious how visuals can bring out like somebody's essence, because what you're, I think what you do, is you. You see them for who they truly are, they become comfortable with you, but then somehow you are packaging it like that's what you're doing with a photograph or with your copywriting. What kind of like? What do you, what do you do? Like? What is going on in that fascinating brain of yours that helps the, the look of something say everything that you know that person needs to be said. I know, like a picture does tell a thousand words, yeah, but not every photograph will show who you are or what you, your passion, is like. You mentioned there your purpose and you know your values.

Éadaoin Curtin:

Even you mentioned and you know what it is you want to say, what your um, what it is you want to give to the world really yeah, and I mean, it's impossible to capture all aspects of somebody in one image, um, but I think it kind of boils down to being able to look at an image of yourself and feel, oh, that's actually me, you know, and I think it's. It's very much as simple as that simple, you know, that comes from being comfortable during the the process of making the photograph. It comes from like a kind of a sense of psychological safety, maybe, um, during the process of making the photos, but also during the process of seeing them for the first time, um, in terms of, like, creating the visual, like I studied interior and furniture design in college, so in terms of being present in a space and the kind of the visual language of things, I suppose there's like an intuitiveness for me, you know. So I remember years ago I did the like the deep dive with a client before her shoot and we had no ideas of location and like, as in, she wasn't great, she didn't come with anything going. Oh, I'd like, I think I'd like to work here or I have this space, or whatever. And so we finished the the thing and I said, like I think I'd like to work here, or I have this space, or whatever. And so we finished the the thing and I said, okay, I have, I have nothing for you right now in terms of like, there's nothing jumping into my mind of where would work really well for you, but leave it with me. And probably about an hour later I was making a cup of coffee and I just went oh yes, going. Oh yes, this is the place, because what it feels like and looks like in my mind was what her essence feels like.

Éadaoin Curtin:

So it's that kind of yeah, there's definitely an intuitiveness to it, you know. And it's the same way with, like during a shoot. I don't know when we're going to be done, but I will know. Do you know what I mean? Like it'll come to a point like, okay, we're finished now, and then it might inevitably they'll be like, oh, but wait, let's, let's just do a little bit over here, or let's just do the last little whatever. And then it's like, okay, now we're done. So it's um, it's that it. The deep dive is a really big part of it too, because it's that getting to know the person and getting the information that I need to kind of pull the things together. And do you know, does that make sense? It does, it makes complete sense.

Éadaoin Curtin:

All of that said, it kind of doesn't matter where we make the photos. In a way, you know there will be, there will be things that will be fit like visually jarring, like I'm always very conscious of where people's hands are, um, because if we can see in a photograph, if we can see one hand but we can't see the other, the person who's looking at the photograph, unconsciously they're wondering where is the other hand? Uh-huh, or you know, so there's. There's that in terms of like the, the the word is gone from my mind anyway how the image is constructed, um, and there will be things that you know we want things to feel and look natural, so we don't want something to appear like it's out of place.

Éadaoin Curtin:

Or you know that that there's um that either the person is kind of blending in with what's around them or that they're contrary. You know their look contrasts too much. You know, if you, I don't know, like something like super, um, a super vivid example of that would be, like you know well, sometimes the contrast can be really exciting. But I'm just thinking like a really shintzy kind of living room situation and you have somebody who's, you know, all in like leather and has a really like sharp haircut, and you know the contrast would be jarring. Yeah, so it's. In order to, to convey somebody, you need the psychological safety, and then there is that kind of element of the location tells part of the story as well and even poses and things like that.

Éadaoin Curtin:

I presume yes yeah, like I love when we have somebody who's you know, somebody who's dressed like they're super feminine and then I get them in a really masculine pose, all right, you know, like just kind of playing with things. Um, yeah, and something that's always really important, I think, you know, particularly when you're being visual in order to, uh, be found, in order for your business or your service to be found, um, it's not a fashion shoot, it's you're. You're not expected to be a model, um, it's important that you look good and you feel good, etc. But what's really important, I think, is eye contact, eye contact with the. The lens is not actually a lens, it's a window, you know, and and the only people who see the camera are me and the person who's being photographed. But when you're using those photographs in your business as a marketing and sales tool, nobody's thinking about the camera, they're just looking at you through this little window that you've created.

Éadaoin Curtin:

So I think, eye contact and making sure that your eyes are the, the kind of the closest part of your body to the camera, you know, I've noticed over the years that people have this kind of um, it happens almost by default where we kind of lean away a little bit from the camera, because maybe we don't really want to be seen.

Éadaoin Curtin:

Sorry, I've just leaned away from the microphone there as well um, which results then in maybe our head being slightly further away and our body being closer to the camera. Okay, and whatever is closer to the camera will be, will look bigger, basically, um, you know and we've all grown up in a world where we're being taught that our bodies need to be as small as they can possibly be and all of those things and I am not here to tell anybody how to make themselves look smaller. That is not my mission in life. I am here to make sure that you feel comfortable about every part of you, but there are things that are important to do and, in terms of posing, you know, making sure that you are greeting the camera and the person who's on the other side of it, who is your client, your potential client.

Aideen Ni Riada:

I love that, love that um. I I'm not sure if you've heard of Vanessa Van Edwards, but she's a body language expert. She's like the Brené Brown of body language and she has some fascinating um research done on you know, the use of your hands in, you know even on a zoom call or even in photographs, and you're going to really love um her. I'll send you um and I'll put the link to the her, to an amazing podcast with vanessa, into the show notes as well, because I just think you know the way we communicate visually can either alienate people or it can make them feel our warmth or our competence those are the two words that she uses. It's about getting the feeling of the smile, but also that you are trustworthy, credible, all of those things. But so anyway, that's just a side note Tell us a little bit about your Dare to be Seen visibility course from the perspective of your clients. Like what is it that they get in there that makes it easier for them?

Éadaoin Curtin:

So I wanted to change how I was working. A couple of years ago it was kind of 2021, 2022. Things were different, people were different, the energy was different. I think we'd all spent a lot of time being seen head and shoulders, but not the rest of us, and not being out in the world, and I found I was struggling, definitely so. I had my first son in the summer of 2020.

Éadaoin Curtin:

We were not living here in our home, we were. We'd moved out for renovations and we moved back in in 2021. We had no mirrors in the house for a solid year, but we have a window by the front door, and so what would happen Is I would Look at myself in the reflection of the window After I had locked the front door. I would not necessarily be happy with what I saw. It was too late to go back in Because I was on my way wherever I was going and that was it. And I think my experience like the layers of becoming a parent for the first time, the physical, emotional and mental changes that came with that, layered on the isolation and the craziness of the world in the pandemic I think it may have been magnified for me in some ways, but I'm sure other people had experiences that magnified it for them, but what I found was um, I wanted to change up how I was working. I wanted to bring a different energy to the work, and I also saw that people needed, um, a little bit more coaching. So what I used to my standard kind of shoot that I used to do, kind of pre-2020 was about three hours long, but actually a lot of that time was spent coaching the client how to pose, figuring out what outfits they were going to wear, where they were going to wear them. You know, we'll do this outfit there. This would be really good here. I don't think that's going to photograph very well. Let's put that back in the suitcase or whatever. So the client would be coming to the shoot with very few decisions actually made.

Éadaoin Curtin:

Um, I was accepting full responsibility for making those decisions on the day. So what was happening? Like my, I was engaging in that power dynamic of the photographer has the power over how you look okay and I. I began to understand that that needed to change and I wanted to shift that power and that responsibility so that the client was both accepting the responsibility of how they showed up but also engaging with that very, very powerful thing of you know, choosing and deciding how they were going to be seen, but also that they were going to love how they were seen, because a lot of it is a decision.

Éadaoin Curtin:

So I were. I was working with um, a client of mine, one of my kind of first branding clients, um, and I photographed her in. I photographed her wedding. I photographed her a couple of times as a business owner and the last time that we engaged together was a couple of years ago and she shared with me her process and it actually helped me to blueprint how I wanted my clients to engage in the process, so that they weren't showing up to the shoot with the suitcase full of clothes and going right, I'm here, what are we gonna do?

Aideen Ni Riada:

so it's um can I just go back there, just just for my own clarity?

Éadaoin Curtin:

so the reason she had a process was because she had worked with you a few times no, I know, I think probably yes, because she'd been photographed a few times and she wanted to um, to engage with it in in in a new way for her as well. So she began to photograph herself like she. She began to get dressed for the day and then photograph herself and go, oh, that doesn't look in the photograph the way I thought it was going to look, and okay. So I like how this makes me feel, but I don't like how it looks in a photograph.

Éadaoin Curtin:

And she began to kind of, um, I suppose, reorient how she was seeing herself and so seeing her do that, having her share that with me, and you know the fact that we had worked together a couple of times and she, she, she did. She had learned from me about posing already, so we did in that one hour the shoot was, I think was, about 55 minutes. From the first frame to the last, seven different sets of images. There were wardrobe changes, um, she probably got back more images from that shoot than she would have from the previous three-hour shoot that we've done. Wow, um, I always think it's really important when you are hiring a photographer, not to ask how many photographs you're going to get, but how many sets you're going to get, because I could sit and I could take 5 000 photographs of you in one day but.

Éadaoin Curtin:

If they're 5 000 photographs of exactly the same thing, then you've got one photo. But if you've got seven different sets where you're changing your wardrobe, the background is different, the poses are different, your facial expressions are changing, then you've got you know, you've got your five sets, your seven sets, and you've got maybe four or five images within each of those that you're going to use. Do you know what I mean?

Éadaoin Curtin:

so you have that one where you go, that's me and then you'll have those other ones you're like that would be great for my newsletter. That'll be social media. This will be great for PR. This will be great for this kind of PR, you know, whether it's newspapers or digital media or whatever, um. So, yeah, I began, I documented that process and I also brought in my own process.

Éadaoin Curtin:

So, like I'd said to you previously about doing that deep dive with the client, I don't really do that anymore now because they do a lot of that work by themselves. So it's a self-paced course and we kind of work on the, the three, the three foundations. My methodology it's it's about um, preparation and that's kind of like the logical, the logistics of it. So the posing, the deciding on your wardrobe, all those kind of things. Then there is the power, and so I have some lovely podcast interviews that are laid out that you can listen to. There is the taking selfies as a way to step into your power and see yourself. There are some other kind of self-coaching exercises, I suppose, where we think about how we want to be seen and why we want to be seen and those kind of things.

Éadaoin Curtin:

And then there's also the purpose of the images, because I will tell you, there is nothing that breaks my heart more than knowing that my client has incredible photos of themselves and they're not using them. They're sitting on a folder on the desktop, um, and I always get a thrill. My my photo hosting platform sends me a notification when somebody downloads photos and somebody downloaded photos the other day and this is somebody who, who I photographed years ago and nothing ever came of it. Because when I photograph people, they're on a threshold of change. They may or may not choose to actually cross that threshold, and there was a long time where I carried that um, and now I've I understand now that that's it. There's a wider thing. It's not all about me, you know. It's not that. It's not all about me and my work.

Aideen Ni Riada:

But that brings me to what I wanted to ask you is like why are you so passionate about that for people that they actually use those photographs? Why does that matter?

Éadaoin Curtin:

um, because their visibility matters and their work matters and being seen, making that choice to be seen and then following through with it is there something beyond that, something deeper?

Éadaoin Curtin:

I think it, I think what it does. I I've seen it time and time and time again where even the prep, the process of preparing for the shoot, does something for people's confidence. The process of nailing the shoot does something for people's confidence, and that can be enough. Sometimes, you know people, they sprinkle the photos in. Like I said, the photos are almost a byproduct in some ways. But I think there is also this thing of like continuing the momentum. You know, you decided how you want to be seen, you made the financial investment, you made the energetic investment. Now let yourself be successful, let your people find you, you know. So, yeah, so this client I got a notification the other day that she had downloaded photos and I haven't been in touch with her yet, but I will just to send her a little note to say you go, you do it, I can't wait to see what happens you know, it's like a seed gets sown and you're you're expecting.

Aideen Ni Riada:

You're expecting change for people, transformation yeah, there's actually a transformative process there for them that can have a knock-on effect on others. Then that they get inspired by that or they get to receive the service from that person or something in them that is valuable but may be hidden. One of the things that I always talk about is that you're a treasure, your voice has value and stop hiding. Are you hiding? Because this is so important that we all each of us find a way to allow ourselves, be ourselves and be, to do something with our lives. You know what I mean? Mean, and it's not.

Aideen Ni Riada:

It's a timing thing. There's a lot to do with when's the opportunity coming and when's my time coming, but I just love this idea that we're going to say to each other I knew that was about to happen for you. I'm just so excited. Something's changing, something's happening. There is like that feeling of momentum of excitement, of you know, feeling of momentum of excitement of you know we're living for a reason. We're living to be here to do something, and I want people to be curious and passionate and inspired, and it feels like we're exactly on the same page there that you're just itching. You're like a cheerleader, but you're like you. You're, you get on the field and you're like here, kick the ball.

Éadaoin Curtin:

This way, I don't know, but I am the cheerleader. You know the, the um, I'm an INFP, I'm pretty sure oh, that's your personality test.

Aideen Ni Riada:

Yeah, which?

Éadaoin Curtin:

is a cheerleader wow, there you go, nailed it yes, 100%. I love and that's the thing like the the fact that I get to play a part in someone else's success is just a thrill like. I firmly believe that the success of small businesses is a success of all of us, you know, because when a small business owner is successful, that ripples out throughout their community, you know, and it it changes how their community, both locally and their business community, is. You know, I think it's, it's just yeah, it's a thrill.

Aideen Ni Riada:

Is there anything that you would like to reiterate or anything that you have had on your mind that you'd like to say? So this, in essence, is like a window. This podcast is like a window If you talk to the people. They're listening to us right now. They've enjoyed the conversation, but what is it you want them to know?

Éadaoin Curtin:

yeah, that's one of the questions I ask my, my clients. Um, your work is important, your work is valuable. You have the responsibility Sorry, I'm going to say you have the power to shape your own narrative and you can dare to be seen.

Aideen Ni Riada:

Beautiful, I'm so happy that we have had the chance to have this conversation. Beautiful, I'm so happy that we have had the chance to have this conversation. Um, I know that another passion of yours is community, and that you're. That's a part of your next step. Is there anything you'd like to mention about that? I'm afraid we didn't get much of a chance to talk about it no, not at all.

Éadaoin Curtin:

It's just my, it's kind of my focus for this year. Um, I think a lot of what's happening in the world, um, it's just, you know, there's a, there's a divisiveness and there, you know, I feel like we've moved towards individualism and isolation from each other and I just really community has become a really strong value, I think, for me and a way that I want to live my life, um, both geographically, physically, and in in the social media world yeah, and I think sometimes you know, when you see someone, like on a podcast or you know you see their photographs like I, I'm redoing some of my, my branding and stuff and I just said I want people to know that I'm here for them, right?

Aideen Ni Riada:

I don't want to be like an icon in the distance that everyone's like oh yeah, aideen's. I mean, you know what did my cousin say? I I said to her one day you know, everyone in my, my family is very different. And she said, yeah, but Aideen, you're the most different. And I was like, okay, because, um, I I do have, I have done the dare to be seen thing in different ways and surprised people, but I'm in my heart, I am just wanting to be there for others as well.

Aideen Ni Riada:

And this podcast it's not like. You know, we are way above anyone else. We just we have a journey we've been on and if you're listening right now, you have a journey that you've been on and you have a story to tell and I don't feel any bigger or smaller than anyone else and I would love for people who are listening to realize that thing that you just said that your, your, your, you know your work is important, but you are important and we are happy that that people listen to the podcast, but also would love for people to realize that we want to cheer them on in whatever stage of their life they're at yeah, 100 yeah, so let's connect.

Aideen Ni Riada:

So this idea of community, right, let's find aiding on on social media um, find her course. It's available. You know you might not want to do your photograph straight away, but maybe the course itself is going to help you to step into your power. Um, and we want to hear from our listeners. We want to hear from you, um, we're, that's why we do what we do. We want to hear from our listeners. We want to hear from you. That's why we do what we do.

Éadaoin Curtin:

We want to uplift people, I think 100%.

Aideen Ni Riada:

So thank you so much, Aideen, for being on the podcast today. Thank you all for listening and I'll see you next time on the Resonate podcast with Aideen. God bless and take care. Bye-bye.